Dmg on item vs dmg ????

the diff is 174k materi! (84k t4 bereach mace and 90k priscine cores ) great way to spend it! i don't get how is this possible! any ideas? 210% dmg (t3 has 144% dmg on item and 62% dmg) vs 238% dmg (t4 has better base stats by around 40).

 

t3 is better if you use blue essence or higher

 

well, i can see that! but how is this possible! <210% vs 238% and the winner is <210% ???????

 

Because the way that ess works above green ess, aka blue, purple or red, those %'s are not allowed to stack directly with "% damage". The ess can only stack with "% increased weapon damage". for example, a friend has 2X increased weapon damage and 2X increase damage gun. his base is 13.5k just like mine. on blue ess, he gets 16.1k damage. on blue i get 19.8k damage. difference is, i use 4X increase weapon damage gun so you can imagine the difference on red ess. hope this helps out.

 

Basically, increased damage on this item is (usually) more powerful than increased damage due to the way game math works. That is why the t3 is better for you.

 

What a waste!
Increased damage on this item is what a weapon needs. Increased damage lines on weapons seem like a troll to me.
Try both your weapons with red ess and see the huge mistake you've done.

 

yes.... i've learned that the hard way! But... show me where is the description "increase dmg on this item" and "increase dmg"! I didn't find any! (i mean more than empiric forum messages like : "increased damage on this item is (usually) more powerful than increased damage due to the way game math works" ). The % dmg on item = increase dmg on item; % dmg = increase all dmg ( wep and the rest of items => so with that logic t4 with 238% overall dmg vs 210%, should have been better). that would be common sense from description! but guess not!

 

Actually the description of what they do it's explained pretty well by their name.
The reason why one it's better than the other is based on other factors of the game that keep changing as the game evolves.
Pre R185 you would have wanted 1 or 2 enchantments with raw increased damage, now 4 x % IDotI it's GENERALLY the best (not in every case), in a while it could become % ICHD.

 

Think of it this way: your T4 is basically a white weapon, and the 238% increased damage is the essence you're using. Essences are essentially that... % damage, same as that on your T4 weapon.

Yes, you are right. "% increased damage" increases all damage, EXCEPT other "% increased damage" sources, but if it is on your weapon, it means it has way less damage to be increased.

On the other hand, despite "% increased damage on this item" affecting just the weapon, it is giving you a much higher starting damage (your real base damage upon which the overall % dmg multipliers act) , an actual damage increase on the weapon, multiplying its base stats and the rubies on it, meaning that the 50% more weapon damage on your wisdom tree will be multiplying a much higher number, and after that, when the % overall damages (25x 2% on wisdom tree, % dmg on belts, helms, torsos, essences, etc.) come into the mix, they will be much more efficient, multiplying a higher base than your "white" T4 weapon.

So your T4 weapon has a base damage of 583-856 and your T3 has a base dmg of 1330-1998

On those numbers will come the 50% increase from the behemoth talent, making the T3 base even higher in comparison...

So the T4 has now ~ 875-1284 dmg and T3 has 1995-2997.

To that dmg now the game adds your naked base dmg (Idk exactly how much that is) and dmg from your other items (those +20-30s on the base of the items). So let's assume it is a +600 total?

T4 dmg now is at 1475-1884 and T3 is 2595-3597

Those numbers right there are your real damage. Those are the only numbers essences will affect. This is where all the % overall damage enters the calculations. And this is why having a weapon with a lot of "% dmg on this item" is important. That multiplier is the first to take place on the final dmg calculation.

So as you can see, your T3 ended up giving a higher damage even with a critic dmg line that doesn't count for the base dmg. This gap will just get bigger and bigger as you put on other sources of % dmg.

 

That would be me.

Here is the short version:

% Increased Damage applies to all damage. That is damage from the weapon (after calculating the % increased damage on this item), armor, and any gems/runes that may offer damage. It also counted in the same calculation step as essence, so high % Increased Damage waters down the effect of the essence.

On the other hand, %IDotI applies to the weapon's base stats and all gems before accounting for the % Increased Damage from essences, or gear.

Here is a simplified equation that should show the power of these factors.
For simplicity's sake, I'm ignoring the base damage on armor, but the effect is about the same since the weapon is the primary source of damage in any given build. % Weapon damage comes from Behemoth and certain sets like the Black Warlord and Bellicose sets of which you are likely using Behemoth, but don't have the other two. You may also have % damage on your belt, helmet, torso, or Rings of Death but I'll ignore those for the demonstration.

damage multiplier=(%IDotI on weapon)*(%ID)*(%WD)

In your build above, you have the following:

(2.4456)*(1.6204)*(1.5000)=5.944 times the weapon's base damage (plus a little for other damage sources)
(1.0000)*(3.3837)*(1.5000)=5.076 times the weapon's base damage (plus a little more for other damage sources since it has more %ID)

Now, let me show you what an "ideal" set up would be...

39 %ID on torso, 39 %ID on belt, Bellicose set with 40% %WD and ~17.5 %ID, Behemoth for 50 %WD, 310% IDotI on weapon

Then, your multiplier estimate would look like:

(4.100)*(1.955)*(1.9)= 15.23 times the weapon's base damage (plus a little for other damage sources)

In case you are curious, I ignored %ID from helmets and RoD in this because in my ideal world, I'd be aiming for the updated Bloodtooth for %CHR and %CHR for helmets. Remember, this is not the final DPS formula. It is just a quick way to compare different weapons in a reasonably accurate way.

I hope that demonstrates the power of %IDotI and you will proceed to trash any and all weapons that come with %ID. It was an expensive lesson, I'm sure, but now you will never make that mistake again.

In the future, before spending thousands upon thousands of Materi Frags, if you are not 100% sure, ask for advice. If you had come to the forums 3.5 months ago, I'd have told you that was a bad idea and this would have never happened to you.

 

I'm pretty sure this isn't possible anymore.

Actually 3*IDotI & 1*ID it's better in many environment (basically any time you don't use purle or red ess or you don't have a Q7 set) so don't be scared to make that kind of weapon.
It will be better than the 4/4 IDotI weapon in many cases (basically any time you don't use essence). PVP wise, for instance, it's better.

 

I would say increase damage is okay, but more than 1 line of it and you will suffer the wrath of BP's damage calculations and get screwed over. But increase damage on item is so much better and you get full boost too damage will using essences

 

The key there is "any tiem you don't want to use purple or red ess."

When do you use purple or red ess?
Answer: To do the hardest things in the game, usually bosses. At those times, you'll be regretting the 10%-15% more DPS you could have if you went with the "better with ess" choice.

When do you not use essence?
Answer: Against content that is usually easy enough that 5% more damage from a 3/1 weapon isn't likely to be noticeable, like when you are farming Q3M1 LVL 1 for glypsh and frags.

While you make a good point with PvP actually being beneficial because you can't use essence in there, I'll make this counter point. The difference between a 4x %IDotI and a 3/1 mix is maybe a 5% improvement on an already significantly OP weapon that will probably barely make a noticeable difference in the outcome. If you are going 1v1 against two different SMs and one has 20k max damage and the other has 21k max damage, do you think you will notice the difference while you get blasted into oblivion? Not likely. Now, take those same two SMs to a T4 boss where they are using reds and do you think you'll notice the fight taking 15% less time and saving everyone resources? I think so.

My final point is this:
Unless someone is ultra dedicated, most people only have the resources to make one 4/4 legendary weapon. It is better to have the best versatile weapon than the best situationally dependent weapon. It is better to do it right the first time than to find yourself trapped with a weapon you regret (see the OP's multiple posts for the salty taste of the flavor of regret that may result). That said, if I do a exo to legendary craft and pass on three %IDotI and get a random gold line of %ID, I'll be jumping up and down like a fool, but I won't stop there down the road... just shift gears to the next item that needs the most attention before circling back.

 

If we were talking about dwarfs, I would say you are right with your extimations but talking about other classes I wouldn't totally agree.

I did some tests and it came out that, if you don't have a Q7 buff and the ID% only on the torso (because many RA or SW could probably prefer a full % CHD belt and CHR Helm) and sometimes not even that (because, i suppose, some DK will want a full %DEF/%IDEFotI Torso) you will have a small benefit using a 4/4 IDotI weapon with red ess, basically the same DPS with purle and lower DPS with blue.

What really shifts the things to a side or the other is how inflated the %ID pool is.

It's true and I also consider more useful a weapon that gives it's best in the worst situations and that makes me save as many essences as possible (most of all now that they are less farmable than before) but, for instance, I've started to use blue ess on every boss (even in infernal) and this is another point to consider.

My resurces are getting lower and lower and basically the only time I'm using red ess is for Dragan in Infernal, I won't speak for the others because I main a "different" class (the only one which, for sure, would prefer a 4/4 IDotI weapon) but I'd suggest you to test the DPS with different builds.

 

Thanks _Baragain_ for answer! You gave more knoledge than BD support which was a bit dry at 3:03am!


[content removed]


Thanks again _Baragain_ !!

EDIT

 

Hello @EyeStun ,
Do not disclose conversations with support officers in public, as they are private.

Cheers.

 

Give credit where credit is due. Support is excellent at helping players troubleshoot or fixing item problems or reporting bugs and all those sorts of things. But if you want to ask detailed questions about the game, then the place you want to go for an explanation is the forums. Support has enough to deal with without trying to explain complicated game mechanics in the form of a ticket when there is no bug or support related issue.

 

…hmm…just confuse what to do. I have exo longbow with 65%IDotI + 12% attack speed. i upgrade it to lvl 46. Plus buckler 80% block rate & 69% block strength which i used. Yesterday I got dragan weapon which I think its nice because im not sure the output result if I shift my glyph to dragan; sorry im not good in math. I just check how much I spend glyph to the same lvl of my weapon. It show only lvl40 upgraded weapon to my new dragan the amount of glyph on my weapon’s have. Second thing that bother’s me is im pvp oriented I like to have for defense like balance set-up…
Could you tell me which I prefer to use…the high damage or the like the balance set-up in pvp.

 

Try both the weapons without gliphs or try to put the gliphs from one weapon to another and check what's the best.
Under lvl 40 there's no math to do, you just use whatever gives you the higher DMG.
The calcs we are doing are worth only when you want to know what weapon you need to craft.